Probably my most influential blog post in the last 18 years - the one where I got the most number of people to re-examine long-held beliefs about what they thought was true - was the
"Full Frame vs. Small Sensor (don't laugh)" post from 2017, where I pitted my 42 megapixel Sony A99 II against the tiny 20 MP RX100 V point-and-shoot. When enlarged to poster size and scrutinized, nobody could tell which camera took which image.
I was reminded of that when I started putting my new smartphone, a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra, through its paces. This phone's two claims to fame are optical zooms on two of its lenses, and a whopping 200MP sensor on a third. Check out these shots of the replica of the Mayflower ship taken at 200 MP resolution from far away (as always, click on any image to view larger and sharper):
And the 100% crop of the above:
Yowza! That's pretty incredible for a phone. I wonder what the quality difference would be if I pitted this new engineering marvel against my other engineering marvel, the Sony A7R V?
So I started doing some experiments, and learning about this phone's strengths and weaknesses. My biggest curiosity involved the online "experts"' dismissal of the phone's 200 MP mode, saying "Well, those are tiny pixels so they are sure to be of inferior quality to [whatever camera the pundit was paid to promote that week]. So let me start by running down the important stuff:
- There are four cameras on the back of the S23 Ultra, measured in "X" (magnification relative to the "Wide camera" 2nd lens) rather than traditional 35mm equivalent focal length. The specs and equivalent focal lengths for each lens are:
- 0.6x (13mm equivalent, 12 MP)
- 1x (23mm equivalent, 200 MP but pixel-binned to 12 MP by default. Can be configured to shoot at native 200MP or a pixel-binned 50MP.)
- 3x (optical zoom from 23mm to 70mm equivalent, 10 MP although it produces 12MP output)
- 10x (optical zoom from 70mm to 230mm equiv, 10 MP although it produces 12MP output)
- When you zoom in past 10x (like to 100x, for example, which should be avoided at all costs), the phone performs a "digital zoom" - cropping and upsizing, practically guaranteeing poor image quality. So I never go past the 10x setting.
I've been saying for years that pixel peeping is not a valid way to evaluate image quality. It's more meaningful to blow it up to poster size and view it from a reasonable distance. And so I did two tests:
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Which took which? |
1) This family picture; one taken with the A7R V (61 MP) and the other with the S23 Ultra's main camera at 200 MP. I used photoshop to make the two images' color and saturation look as close as possible. Then I brought the enlargements to a local camera club and asked attendees to look at the subjects and guess which camera took which picture. The room was split - and in listening to explanations as to why a choice was made, it was clear that nobody really could tell. (Well, one person could tell instantly by ignoring my instructions - more about that in a minute.)
2) During a recent visit to the Thomas Edison Museum in Menlo Park, NJ, I took two images with my phone; one at 200 MP and the other at the native 10 MP (whose output somehow ends up at 12 MP) and blew them up. (Below.) Keep in mind that this is in poor light so you'd expect the 200 MP image to be significantly worse than the 12MP version, which had been pixel binned for sensitivity and cleaned up via the phone's algorithms.
The fact is they're hard to visually distinguish when printed. The photo club had the same difficulty discerning the difference too. I sort of knew that result was a possibility, but I was still surprised by how close they were.
Pre-Emptive Strike
I'm anticipating a flood of angry emails from serious photographers, protesting this experiment and saying that big cameras are more versatile / have faster AF / have greater resolution at 200mm / allow for the decisive Moment (
smartphones generally don't) / have a better user interface and ergonomics / have a viewfinder / can do wireless flash / can zoom seamlessly when shooting video / hold up to scrutiny when pixel-peeping / allow wedding photographers to charge more / etc. And of course all of that is true. But those people are missing the point of this exercise, which is
LOOK AT HOW CLOSE THE PHONE IS TO THE BIG CAMERA!!! In two weeks someone will come out with another phone that will no doubt be even better. And don't get me started about Night Mode in most smartphones, which allows you to take sharp handheld pictures at night without a tripod (really, it's brilliant).
Frequently Asked Questions
"Wouldn't this test be even more relevant if you had used phones that use Sony's 1"-type sensor (famously used in the RX100 series of point-and-shoots)?" The answer is Yes, but I opted for the Samsung because their Image Enhancer feature handles high dynamic range images better than anything I've seen from any big camera, making difficult lighting look just like your eye and brain remember seeing it, without needing to shoot in RAW and postprocess. Most of the other phones that can do that (Vivo X90, Xiaomi 13 Pro, Sony Xperia 1V (although in online reviews the Sony
seems to be the weakest in that area) don't have the same 10x native focal length and/or don't play well with North American cell phone providers, so I didn't spring for any of those.
"Yeah but is 10 MP enough?" National Geographic has published lots of images taken with 10 MP cameras. Full-page images from Cuba taken with my 6 MP Konica Minolta 7D
graced the pages of Photoworld magazine back in the day. And I have plenty of poster-size enlargements taken with my 10 MP Sony A100 back when that camera was considered state-of-the-art.
So Which Camera Took Which Picture?
(What, can't you tell? :-) ) Family picture: Image 2 was the A7R V.
Edison Museum: Image 2 was the 200 MP image.
How was that one person able easily identify the family picture?
If you look at the background instead of the subjects, the smartphone has considerably greater depth-of-field. That's the quick give-away. (Yes, you can add gaussian blur to match them better...)
Footnotes
1) I was surprised at how small the Thomas Edison museum was, especially since he was the Elon Musk of his day. (Yeah,
Edison had a slimy side as well.) Our museum guide demonstrated one of his wax cylinder phonographs, which was quite loud. "That was a problem for a lot of people back then" the docent said, "So people started to stuff socks in the speaker to quiet it down. Hence, the phrase "Put a sock in it!" was born.
2) The S23 Ultra can't switch between lenses when shooting video, so if you start wide and zoom in to 10x, it will do a digital zoom which will look awful. If you start at 3.5x and zoom in to 10x, it will look great. Now you know.
More details here. (In my opinion the video quality isn't there yet for smartphones. Of course if I really want to do a wide to long zoom, I'll just break out the right tool for the job -
my RX10 IV. :-) )
Six Weeks
And now for something completely different. Let me tell you about the most interesting six weeks of my life.
In the early 1980's, I was a photographer for a children's performing ensemble called "
A Show Of Hands", which did precision sign language along with singing and dancing. They were very talented. The group toured Switzerland in 1985 and made intense friends there with members of a Swiss children's theatre group called A.F.A.T. I was there to document it all.
Three years later, I went on a similar photographic excursion to the Soviet Union, where I
documented a Peace Child cultural exchange between Soviet and American high school students.
In a fit of both nostalgia and insomnia, I've compiled a short 22-page picture book talking about the six weeks in 1989 which brought these and many other significant experiences together. They were:
- A trip to Switzerland to visit some of the kids from A.F.A.T.
- A trip to Germany to do work for the European Space Agency
- The Peace Child Soviet Reunion in Detroit
- Voyager Spacecraft Neptune Encounter at JPL (that was a big deal back in the day)
- Moving into my first condo
- And more...
You can download the booklet here:
https://friedmanarchives.com/~download/temp/Six_Weeks.pdfBe sure to look at the last two pages, showing a timeline of just how busy I used to be outside of work, and why my mom always complained that I was burning the candle at both ends in my 30's.
Until next time,
Yours Truly, Gary Friedman
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(Unless you count the image processing techniques used by the Samsung phone, which is known to use such algorithms on the faces.) |
I'm really impressed with the Pixel 6pro camera. Since I don't get out much these days, I seriously considered selling all my camera gear (£7000) since recently, I've been using the phone exclusively.
ReplyDeleteLooking at the new Sony 1 V... the pictures I've seen look absolutely amazing.
Very interesting article. Why then do you own Sony’s latest and greatest? Why not stick to camera phones or Sony’s earlier DSLRs?
ReplyDeleteBecause I can't get gigs by claiming, "I use a really great smartphone". (Also the wireless flash thing.) :-)
DeleteI'm a little unclear; on the family picture, were they both taken at the same distance? The A7R family looks definitely clearer to me (viewed on my phone and enlarged), as I would have expected, though that may just be because the colors are a little more intense.
ReplyDeletePrinting is the great equalizer. :-) The colors of the phone are pretty vibrant; I had to reduce them in photoshop to bring them close to the level of the A7R V.
DeleteIt is indeed amazing how far phone camera systems have evolved!
ReplyDeleteAside from technical considerations, such as how backgrounds are blurred or not (as you pointed out), I still, so far, much prefer the ergonomics and *experience* of "real" cameras as compared to smartphones. For example, importantly to me, I feel more connected and immersed with the scene with my various Alpha cameras (A100 up to and including A7R5), RX100-VII and a couple of Canon digital cameras. To me, such cameras are each like musical instruments that create their particular kind of result and experience. That being said, I do use my smartphone camera (iPhone 13 Pro Max) as well, but for more pedestrian purposes such as documenting tasks of daily life as when I needed earlier today to send photo evidence to the seller of a mangled eBay delivery. [initial reply post updated to fix a typo]
Agree about everything you said. Please also see my "Pre-emptive strike" paragraph above.
DeleteHonestly cell phone manufacturers using multiple sensors with a fixed lens on top of each and then cropping the sensor to get the desired zoom is just terrible for quality. I would rather have 1 or 2 sensors each with their own optical zooms. 12MP with a 24-70, 12MP with a 70-200. Even if they had to increase the thickness of the phone it would be worth it. Give me high quality 4K video at 120FPS, and I will be happy.
ReplyDeleteYou pretty much described the S23 Ultra.
DeleteAs one who still uses the A100, I get better results than a phone...at my age I need the camera weight to steady myself.
ReplyDelete:-)
DeleteLike the results or not, the reason I love your blog is that it is agenda free and speaks the truth. Even without the complex tests that you did, we can't ignore what we have been seeing but not admitting; that our cell phones take pretty damm good pictures and sometimes those pictures are better that what we get with an expensive camera and lens. The old cliche applies, "The best camara is the one you have with you" and I always have my cell phone. Great stuff Gary (even if it stings a bit LOL), keep it coming. candreychak@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteThank you!
DeleteVery interesting as usual. Thanks. The most impressive is your career though.
ReplyDeleteThanks! There's an old saying I'm starting to adopt: "The older I get, the better I was."
DeleteI attended your class many years ago, and just searched my email for the earliest missive from you. It was from 2007, and the included link to the video still works!
ReplyDelete"========== "Peace Child in Latvia" Documentary Now Online! ===========
Back in 1988, in the Soviet Union, I was a photojournalist for a historic cultural exchange between Soviet and American high-school students. Through the catalyst of a musical play called "Peace Child", these 15 American and 15 Latvian students dealt with the (then) very real fear of nuclear war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Armed with my cameras, a tape recorder, and about 100 rolls of film, I was there to document the event and bring the intense emotional story home. The multi-media presentation (back in the days when "multi-media" meant two slide projectors and synchronized sound) that resulted has won awards and has moved American audiences to tears as well.
And now, in preparation for the 20th anniversary of this historic event, I have dusted off the transparencies and re-created this documentary for all to see and share:
http://www.friedmanarchives.com/Latvia/PCLatvia.htm
The run time is about 20 minutes - just the right amount of time to help trigger those fond memories of the cold war. :-) Enjoy!!"
You taught me how to get good photos, but also about my A100. It now sits in a drawer, in deference to my A6400 and iPhone 12 mini. Cheers and best...
ReplyDeleteInteresting article. I have the samsung s21 ultra , is the camera in S23+ a big improvement?
ReplyDeleteNo it's an incremental improvement. Mostly in the zoom department. I'll bet if you did this test using it you'll get equally indistinguishable results.
DeleteI don't doubt for a minute that phone technology now allows for an extremely high image quality.
ReplyDeleteBut I have found touch screens to be the most error-prone, cumbersome interface ever devised by mankind! I LOATHE touchscreens.
So give me a bulky old "regular" camera, (with the touch screen, if applicable, turned off), all day, every day. If it does not have buttons and dials, it will never be my main imaging device. ;)
Also. I shoot a lot of sports, so I need access to genuinely long lenses. Thank you! :)
Touch screens are even worse on car dashboards (especially when the car is moving! :-) ). Again, I point to the Pre-Emptive Strike paragraph above. If you're shooting sports, a phone is not the right tool for the job.
DeleteOr wildlife.
DeleteAt one time I was adamant that the phone is not a camera since quality was average at best on a good day. So I bought a second hand RX100 to deal with the occasions I needed a pocket camera and that worked out brilliantly that time my main lens bit the dust far from home on an extended holiday. They are very good indeed for something so small.
ReplyDeleteI am an old tech kind of guy, I like the image quality of Minolta lenses and I use them with an A99, A700 and A200. In particular the A200 and 28-85 create fantastic images for reasons I can't explain.
The A200 as it happens has accompanied me all over the world and will do so again shortly with Sony 16-105, Sigma 8-18 and Minolta 100-300 which is quite compact. This all fits into a tiny bag, is light and unobtrusive which is why it get used a lot.
Which brings me back to phones which are not cameras but do render fine images with little fuss. Times change and my iphone 11 is perfectly good enough for images for social media and it gets used a lot. They may never take over completely but they do make good sense a lot of the time.
At Christmas my daughter asked me to take a family photo for their Christmas card. I used my Sony A7R3 with my Sony 24-70 2.8 lens. I took several pictures and she did not like them (color and clarity). She handed me her IPhone and told me to use it for the same composition. I took several pictures with the Iphone and she liked them and used IPhone photos for her Christmas card.
ReplyDeleteSee "Beginning #1" in this blog post: https://friedmanarchives.blogspot.com/2021/09/computational-photography.html :-)
DeleteHey Gary, it's Tom Owens...i also have the s23 ultra, got it pretty recently. I like it, i don't love it yet... do you use pro mode or just the standard 'photo' mode? I still 'feel' like I'm using a shortcut with the phone, i find the pictures to be... I'm not sure how to describe it... over processed and crispy?
ReplyDeleteOver-processed is right... with the vibrance turned way up. I had to tone it down for this comparison. In spite of that I almost never use pro mode because I value my spare time and the phone handles high dynamic range scenes without needing to post-process. Again, see the blog post I mentioned above ("Beginning #1") for more insight.
DeleteIt will get to the point where AI will simulate on a smartphone what kind of lens you need to shoot a safari adventure. It will simulate a 100-300mm lens at any aperture or shutter speed through software. Most photographers might not even need to buy a mirrorless anymore.
ReplyDeleteThen all the pundits will be spending their time arguing, "Yes, but is it photography at that point?" or "Okay, so do I schlep my big camera or get people-pleasing shots with less fuss using my phone?" I'm sure there were similar arguments when the microwave oven was invented.
DeleteTrue. Is it photography at that point and there will be lots of fighting. So the purists will still buy their dslr and mirrorless while the casuals will keep using their smartphones. If i'm on vacation or going to a safari adventure in S. Africa at their national park, chances are i won't carry a 100-300mm lens. I'll let the smartphone do the 'work' of a 100-300mm lens. For me, I prefer to travel light!
DeleteWith the power of AI the smartphone will be able generate amazing safari shots all on its own without you even being there. In fact I bet if I go on ChatGPT and ask for 20 amazing safari photos to be generated it'll create photos far better than I could.
DeleteSo no need for photographers, cameras or indeed people - AI can do it all for us!
To paraphrase the quote from Star Trek; "It's photography, Gary, but not as we know it"
ReplyDelete:-)
DeleteI have been using the RX-10M4 for many years and love it. I have anxiously awaited the M5, but even though the rumors persist, Sony has chosen to not release it. I’m beginning to think they fear it replacing their more expensive systems and will never update it. Gary, what’s your thinking on this?
ReplyDeleteI have no insights whatsoever. All I can tell you is I wish for a succesor as well. One that has the standby feature so it can time out will extended to 600mm and wake up in an instant to take a picture. (The turn on\turn off time is my only real complaint about that camera) (well that and the tiny battery).
DeleteHi Gary,
Deletehere is a follower from Darmstadt, Germany. Nice so see some pictures of your time at ESOC. I was a school-kid (9th grade) at that time and was interested in "technology and space" - saw every launch of the space shuttle, which was broadcasted on german tv, etc...
So - thanks for your "blast of the past" and some warm feelings...
Best regards
Stefan
ReplyDeleteAs an Amazon Vine reviewer, I take product shots with my wife's cell phone because it's fast and easy and the pictures don't really get scrutinized - the very reasons why everyone with a phone takes so many utterly meaningless and crappy shots. My main camera is a Sony RX10 IV which, I know, is NOT a high end rig, but using a well-developed camera is essential to understanding the art and science of photography, IMO.
The perennial debate of whether more pixels equates to a better quality image comes to mind, and any number of people have pointed out that the optical quality of the lens also is a major impact in the "enlargeability" of the final image. More pixels cannot make up for inferior glass, or so the conventional wisdom goes. I seem to remember reading a piece in PC Magazine by John Dvorak back in the day in which he looked at poster-size prints from 5 MP cameras and could not distinguish them from film. Personally I remain impressed with the poster-size prints taken with my old Canon sx50HS and its paltry 12 MP sensor. Canon really nailed that lens. Off-topic: Edison maintained a sort of "house band" so he could quickly make test recordings on revisions of his phonographs. My grandfather was a saxophone player in that band. How cool it would be for my kids to visit the museum and see or hear a wax cylinder of some tune that their great-grandfather played
ReplyDeleteon. Years ago, we asked the folks at Menlo Park if they could show us some documents confirming his employment there and they were disappointingly uninterested and unhelpful.
Very cool story about your grandfather! Don't be too upset with the folks at Menlo Park - most of them are volunteers and have to put up with a lot of questions about how he treated Nikola Tesla. :-) I also remember online pundits proclaiming "6 MP is all you need" back when 6 MP came out. Oddly those references seem to be erased from the internet (and yes I searched on the Internet Archive).
DeleteI love it !! I'm an age retired photographer - started in the early 1970's with commercial photography and never stopped. Currently no longer 'deadline meeting mortgage paying shooter' but just a relaxed landscape photographer selling his work in the various visitor centers in our region (Warrumbungle NSW Australia). I do not have a smartphone - I just don't like them and somehow my fingers seem inert with those screens. But I see photos made by others with their smartphones that simply blow me away. Even the still successful camera makers must face the music sooner as anyone will dare to admit.
ReplyDeleteJust last week I did a test for my own work: Olympus OMD EM1.3 vs Fuji XH-1 vs Leica SL1 , all with the same lenses by Leica - I had adapters for all. My intake was different: I want a camera that extends my creative hands and eyes. Not one that stands in-between me and the image with all its bells and whistles and crazy menus etc. AND I was curious about the sensor quality - that can only be done with using the same lens(es) on all camera. AND : I love manual focus.
So this is what I did: A Leitz Apo-Telyt R 180mm 3.4 was the first one to use. I had chosen an 7/8 overcast day . That lens is at top performance wide open (google its interesting story) . My curiosity was how it would focus on each camera and how the sharpness would look like and how the noise would be. The Leica SL was clear winner when it came to ease of manual focus - the camera is just made for it, the viewfinder is an absolute marvel. For me the joy of manual focus is part of making the photo. Surprisingly the Olympus came pretty close with manual focus pleasure. The Fuji lost the plot completely - just a big pain to get it in focus. Then the image quality: I shoot RAW , the Leica was very Ok but the typical very muted tonality is something to get used to - but it also leaves a huge room for adjustments in post. Contrary to the ease of focussing the Olympus was quite 'off' in may images. The Fuji was quite sharp but the tonality was quite hard leaving less room in post as the Leica and to many unsharp. All the Leica sharp and much less in Oly and Fuji puzzled me , and then I realised I had left the IS on while I worked on tripod. Switched that off and dis the session again. Now Fuji and Oly had a much better sharpness rate but still not as good as Leica.
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ReplyDeleteFinally the noise: Leica is unbeatable: 'noise ... what is that ?' Fuji was extremely good as well but somehow still not as sharp as Leica which puzzled me ... as if the imaging-sensor and the finder output are not 100% at the same level. The Olympus was sharper but also not as good as the Leica - the noise in far far away details ( a telegraph pole and a windmill) became blurred in the noise (Remember I had chosen an overcast day) . But ... I was pixel peeping. And using lenses on the Oly and Fuji I normally would not use. So I did an other test. Now with native AF lenses on Oly and Fuji and similar focal length on Leica : All 50mm . Now the picture became different: The Fuji became winner in pure optical sharpness , the Leica and the Oly second. But the noise of the Oly remained and the harsh Fuji output remained. So for me personally the Leica is winner.
But I am a slow photographer , take my time researching a Landscape , take my time setting up my old heavy tripod, and take my time focusing etc. AND the Leica SL has something no other camera I ever had has: I can operate ALL functions with gloves on (It was minus 3 Celsius when I started a Landscape shoot last week) and I can operate all button in pitch dark because of the insane logic the Leica makers have devised in the system AND ... I can feel the shutter release button as good as from an old film camera. Unlike the Fuji XH-1 where the release is so soft that my old fingers often accidentally make the most crazy photos .. or none.
For me making a photo is much more as coming home with the sharpest most colourful happy snap. For me the whole process from packing the camera at home to setting up my tripod to composition to making the photo and then returning with an artwork that sells is one complete package. It is all about the joy of creation with a camera that fits me - even if I make maybe one Landscape photo per month - for me there is no point in coming home with a loaded memory card or smart phone full of nice shots that end up in a hard-drive....
Jacob Roskam - Warrumbungle - Australia
FB: https://www.facebook.com/jacobthephotographer/
Hi, Jacob. It seems this last blog post has resonated with so many people - some who hardly use their big cameras anymore and some (like you) who view the entire process as an important part of image making (not just the result). I think a lot of people should read this, especially the part where you got better results using native lenses (instead of using the same lens for a responsible apples-to-apples comparisons). And of course the scientist in me would want to take your tests one step further: If you only made one print from each camera and put them on a wall, would anyone (photo expert or not) be able to tell which camera took which picture? Comparing side-by-side is necessary to determine a "winner" but I think we're at a point where they're all winners in different scenarios. At the end of the day, it's the light and composition that will make people say, "Wow". In my career I've never heard anyone say "Gee, that's a great picture, but it looks like you've got too much pincushion distortion at the wide end". :-)
DeleteI just came back from a 10 day cruise. My Sony RX-100 VII stayed in my cabin the whole time. All pics were with my Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget, Jerry Ghionis won 4th place in 2012 for WPPI US Wedding Albums that he shot exclusively with an iPhone 4 (just to prove the point that lighting and posing are more important than the camera).
Anybody who's read any of my books or attended any of my seminars knows that light and composition are more important than anything. And Apple used the near-global ignorance of this principle when they ran their "Shot on an iPhone 6" campaign from 2015: "Gee, Gladys, that camera sure takes some mighty fine pictures!"
DeleteRandall in Raleigh
ReplyDeleteCan't really argue with the fact that justifying a "proper" camera in terms of image quality is no longer the case. We're probably only a few years away from the death of "proper" cameras except for extreme niche photography and top professionals. At which point the range of available cameras will plummet and die a death much like film cameras.
ReplyDeleteBut being a old fashioned photographer and a die hard control freak I'll be one of the last few weirdos using a "proper" camera.
I like being in control of the creative process - even though I know a smartphone and AI can create something way better than me. I get genuine pleasure working hard to create an amazing image, usually after 100 mediocre images.
I also like the fact that what I've created is real. I like this in old films where I know, due to lack of technology, an amazing stunt really was done by a real person. Whereas now technology means it can all be faked and no one did anything amazing at all - its all AI computer generated.
Very interesting. Would you be willing to repeat this experiment in low light confitions? Because that is IMO the real strength of FF digital cameras.
DeleteJan De Ruiter - I kind of did with the Edison Museum shot - 200 MP in poor light vs. 12 in the same poor light. Since it was difficult to tell the two apart I didn't think it necessary to shoot it with the big camera also. Of course you are free to do these tests yourself and report back your conclusions!
DeleteTime to convert my Sony 7AR IV to Full Spectrum? I.e., UV + Normal Light + IR (infrared) ???
ReplyDeleteI’m wondering how long it’ll be until we’re doing photographic image outcome comparisons between full-frame digital cameras, smartphones and (upgradable) neurolinked optical implant eye replacement cameras that can be adjusted and triggered manually and/or by thoughts.
ReplyDeleteMy estimate is about two weeks. :-)
DeleteYep, that time frame seems about right!
ReplyDelete